(no subject)

[smokingboot]

Yesterday I bimbled, trying on pretty perfumes for the summer, flirting with gorgeous guys and making eyes at a beautiful genius. Butterfly woman, silly laughing girl, dancing in the sumshine.

Meanwhile, somewhere on the same planet:

http://www.counterpunch.org/kroth04182007.html

I thank illuminating_dragon with all my heart for this link.

Comments

[hybridartifacts.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think its good to just enjoy life when we can.

Good to hear someone is talking at least a smidgen of sense over what happens with alarming frequency in the USA. I think it goes deeper though-psychological isolation is just a symptom of a culture that has come to prize individualism over community, self over other. The combination of the 'right to pursue happiness' and capitalism has perhaps skewed American culture into a position where spree killers are a natural extension of a violent and 'me' obsessed nation.

Thats my take anyway. Thanks for the link.

[november-girl.livejournal.com]

How interesting - I have a very different take on it, as my immediate thought was that the pressures of being seen to conform to society views and hold society's values in order to be part of the community was the problem here.

The problem with any community is that it defines itself by "we" and "notwe". Our Korean chap was clearly treated as "notwe". This may have been because he was Korean, or it may have been for other reasons e.g. for all we know he may have had bad body odour. The reason matters little, the point is that he was excluded by a group that he so desperately wanted to be part of. If that society was based on individualism then firstly it would have been more likely that some people would have taken to him (less community = less pressure to conform to the community views = freedom of choice to a larger extent), and secondly he would be less likely to feel the need to belong in the same way in the first place.

[hybridartifacts.livejournal.com]

But we see ourselves as being the key unit in society-we do not look out for 'the other' because we are only looking out for our own narrow interests. Some groups are ultimately just aggregates of individuals-each seeing themselves as the pivotal part of the group. Perhaps he saw himself as having a right to be in the group because he was thinking first of himself-that the world should revolve around him. And perhaps the nature and form of the groups he saw was a reflection of himself anyway-his own wants and needs. Killing is ultimately an incredibly selfish act-to be able to do it at all you must first distance your sense of self from any empathy with the victim-self must become all. Suicide is very similar-and he did both. Both are ultimately acts of indulging self over other.

My own take is that society in many countries gives people a sense of rights over obligations, self over other, and that increasing violence and crime is largely a reflection of that process-of people becoming more aware of their own needs and sense of self, but feeling betrayed by the inevitable sense of isolation it brings as communal structures change shape and wither or become increasingly exclusive and limited. Spree killings in particular seem to come often from a sense of isolation, but the groups the isolation is relative to are generally rather shallow and short lived.

[november-girl.livejournal.com]

I'd agree with all of that.

[hybridartifacts.livejournal.com]

Of course your take on it is probably valid as well-its one of those instances where apparently opposite views are actually rather similar in a way. Its just a case of what angle one looks at it all from :)

A very tragic situation though-especially since it will almost inevitably happen again somewhere else in the next few years.

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

I remember days and weeks with the family in Spain. It was totally communal to the extent where sitting alone to read a book was considered stand-offish. I found it oppressive in the extreme at times. Conversely, my Spanish grandma found British life terribly gloomy and isolated. The group can be a terrible tyrant if you don't or can't fit in.

My feeling is that if society is made up of individuals and should protect their need both to be individual and also to belong, though this latter seems almost impossible to provide. Recalling my work with Lambeth Borough Education, I don't consider it an evil brought about by specifically US culture; we had an 'armistice' day regarding blades in schools - primary schools.

[hybridartifacts.livejournal.com]

Its always hard to get the both of both worlds-but I agree, striving for balance is something that seems very important to me as well, even though it can be hard to find or maintain.

I think the core principle should always be that of respecting others-seeking enough empathy to allow them space or intimacy as needed. Its rather hard for many people to do- true empathy as a commodity seems in short supply.

US culture has a role to play perhaps-as does western culture in general. US culture is just a particular expression of a cultural shift that began with the enlightenment and industrialisation. The American angle has both its strengths and weaknesses-I think that too much emphasis is placed on the pursuit of happiness (perhaps a hang over of the Puritan work ethic)-when happiness cannot be sought in wealth or material goods-its something that finds you instead-and often at the times when material things are most distant. And of course the American media is very influential in how we all see ourselves.

At its heart America also has a genuine love of its dreams-and many of those are noble ones that a more cynical Europeans take on things tends to loose sight of.

A lot of violence and lack of social empathy probably comes from urbanisation as much as anything else. The rise of that, and industrialisation, is actually a British invention and export-its just that many other nations now do it better than we do, and so have more intense issues over it right now, but of course I agree we have problems as well. Its never a good idea to lay blame for things at other peoples doorsteps when we can do better looking at own because any solution to a problem is nearly always a localised one, unique to the culture experiencing it.

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

It's true that each culture has its own strenghts and weaknesses. But you raise some very interesting points and I can't quite get them out of my head. Does this phenomenon turn up in other countries? Other countries allow gun possession, ie Canada, Switzerland. Is this a peculiarly American tragedy?

Seems to be. And if so, I think you are right, we must look deeper than gun ownership and violent imagery though both may facilitate a problem that's latent. Does it begin in that whole 'Death of a Salesman' dream?

[hybridartifacts.livejournal.com]

Well, we did have Hungerford and Dunblane-and other countries have had theirs as well-I seem to recall a few in Japan, and recently came across one in Holland, plus of course until now Australia held the record for the worst spree killing. America just seems to have more. I have been looking through the stats a lot while chatting with others about the subject-and it seems to be the case that the two countries to look at are America (high gun ownership/lax gun laws and high gun death levels) and Finland (high gun ownership/fairly sensible gun laws but comparatively low gun deaths). To me, just looking at what is different about the culture and mindset/beliefs of the two countries should probably give you the answer. I think it starts with cultural senses of identity and social roles.

One very significant point to keep in mind as well-generally if a culture has a big problem with something its not solving it because they have a blind spot in their culture about it. Find the blind spot and you may find the solution. So-what are the Americans NOT talking about in regards the problem that might make sense to everyone else? What are their 'sacred cows-the things that are so deeply embedded culturally they just don't realise its an issue?

The same can also be applied to our own problems btw-but it would probably take some help from people from other countries to see it. One guy from the States I have been discussing the gun thing with just can't get over how much we let our government snoop on us-how readily we give up things for our elected officials and just let them walk all over us. I think he may have a point.

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

Totally agree with the points you make above.

[hybridartifacts.livejournal.com]

Right now Im actually feeling for the killers family. This must be really really hard for them. And I am remembering when I was 11 and lived in America (Princeton NJ) and how none of the students at the school who came from other countries-even if they had lived for years there-were accepted by the wider body of pupils at the school. We formed a mini 'league of nations' sitting isolated much of the time and gathering together at breaks because most of the Americans wouldn't even talk to us (I did have a couple of very good American friends, one of whom I still see, but overall we were treated like pariahs). Its actually rather horrifying to realise that I can actually identify a little with the killer. Because I suspect he was treated the same way.
He got lost in himself though-never good. Sanity is never well served by by dwelling on self-we need to get out of our own heads a little from time to time and see other peoples perspectives and pain.

[andsoitisso.livejournal.com]

That was a good article. That is the thing about India - it is a little bit of a paradox really. I used to wonder all the time how it worked...that India had almost absolutely nothing, and people in general are relatively much happier - they are always smiling.

And the thing is though people are poorer - there is always too much social contact - it is unavoidable and they are involved in each others' lives(and trust me, sometimes it is such a pain). And because of contact, people are happier. That is one of the reasons I came back to India.

"For small creatures such as us, the vastness is bearable only through love." - Carl Sagan.

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

A fascinating place, I hope to visit as soon as I can! And contact I suppose breeds understanding and love; poor Cho and poor people whose lives were shattered by him! I don't know what matters more, to be accepted or loved, or to be able to stand alone. Both perhaps.