Anger

[smokingboot]

I am thinking too much this morning, and I find myself growing very angry. A couple of friends of mine have mentioned their thoughts on animal testing, and they have a right to - no problems there. The trouble is when one begins to see people correlating the utterly wrong actions of certain extreme animal liberation groups with the point itself as to whether animal testing is right or wrong. And as ever, when I feel myself sinking into terrible anger, I fall back upon old stories and books.

So help me now, Mr Blake, show me that Man is not a thing of horror and torture, teach me something to elevate me and make me smile and remind me that I am a lucky daughter of the diamond age.



'Here,' said I, 'is your lot, in this space, if space it may be call'd.' Soon we saw the stable and the church, & I took him to the altar and open'd the Bible, and lo! it was a deep pit, into which I descended driving the Angel before me, soon we saw seven houses of brick; one we enter'd; in it were a number of monkeys, baboons, & all of that species, chain'd by the middle, grinning and snatching at one another, but witheld by the shortness of their chains: however, I saw that they sometimes grew numerous, and then the weak were caught by the strong, and with a grinning aspect, first coupled with, & then devour'd, by plucking off first one limb and then another till the body was left a helpless trunk; this after grinning & kissing it with seeming fondness they devour'd too; and here & there I saw one savourily picking the flesh off of his own tail; as the stench terribly annoy'd us both, we went into the mill, & I in my hand brought the skeleton of a body, which in the mill was Aristotle's Analytics.
So the Angel said: 'thy phantasy has imposed upon me, & thou oughtest to be ashamed.'
I answer'd: 'we impose on one another, & it is but lost time to converse with you whose works are only Analytics.'


Yes, they will harm each other, and many more besides.

Oh, what a piece of work is Man.

Comments

[rebby.livejournal.com]

It's a hard topic for many people.
What the small minority of people do illegally does not mean testing is right or wrong and should not be used to justify the case.
It does however make a difference to whether or not you sign a pitition. If it is anonymous (go to the sight and see what things they do to stop mutliple postings) then it does stop the small minority getting hold of names and bullying people.

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

Bullying for any reason is utterly detestable.

But hiding from bullies never works.

[binidj.livejournal.com]

I feel that a distinction should also be made between "bullying" and "fighting the good fight". Expressing one's opinions anonymously really seems to be an admission of shame rather than a defence against "bullies".

Quite so

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

I thoroughly agree.

Pish and Tosh!

[colonel-maxim.livejournal.com]

Or alternately a wish not to be called a paedophile, have your house fire-bombed, be beaten up etcetera...

(Had to delete something really quite angry here!)

Re: Pish and Tosh!

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

The key must be to deter the bullies, not to make anonymity an acceptable recourse. People should be able to say what they believe in, proudly. That is the aim, that is the point of freedom of speech.

Anonymity is cowardice and cowardice is always justified because yes, someone may indeed come along and kill you/hurt you. Were German citizens justified in ignoring what was being done to their Jewish neighbours? Not everyone hated Jews, some people were very legitimately afraid of what would happen to their own loved ones if they spoke out. So they didn't. Understandable.

And yet we say, that humanity demands something more.

The Kitty Genovese watchers, those who saw the woman tortured and raped. We can hate those who watched and enjoyed. What about those who turned their faces to the wall, and just ignored it because they were afraid of the repercussions, of other late night visits that might affect them/their children, their loved ones?

Still we say, this prudence is unacceptable, that humanity requires something more.

so let us deal with the problem at source. Stop the bullies entirely, and let names be names without shame.

Re: Pish and Tosh!

[colonel-maxim.livejournal.com]

Well, if you would only relax the ban on guns...

People want to mainatin their anonymity because of scumbags like this...

'ALF spokesman, Robin Webb confirmed that "high-level student groups working against [SPEAK] protesters may be targeted."' He then went on to threaten the 16 year-old founder of PRO-Test.

Re: Pish and Tosh!

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

As I have said, the desire to remain anonymous and safe is understandable but throughout the course of the development of human rights, is not seen as commendable. Yes, what you quote is abominable, and I hold it to be the place of the law to prevent these people intimidating others.
Now consider this:

http://www.navs.org.uk/about_us/24/0/286/

Where is the law against this wretched negligence, this jovial cruelty?Nowhere. And what is the great gain to humankind of this dog's suffering?Nothing. And who will make this better? No-one.

I have received death threats from a nutter who knew my phone number and my address; the intimidation and threats that followed were for no better reason than that I had offended a LARP pedagogue. Guess what?

Yea, though I walk in the valley of crazed fuckers yet will I fear no evil; for if God isn't with me then something is; and I'll face death threats every day of my life, before I run and hide; cos in the end there is nowhere to run to; someone always knows where you live, and someone always knows your name.

It is the duty of the law to make our lives safe from those who would silence us. And given that duty rightly fulfilled, it is our duty to stand up and speak out for what we believe in.

Apocalypta now

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

Love the Bible, especially the psalms. See how they soothe my troubled soul?;-)

[rebby.livejournal.com]

It depends on the bullies and what you want the result to be.
In the end every bully should know that they did wrong but some people will just never accept that.
I don't mind people verbally having a go at me but ruining my property and attacking my friends or family it not someting I want to happen.
If I was shamed by my opinions I wouldn't have posted them in the first place.

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

In the end every bully should know that they did wrong but some people will just never accept that.


They don't need to accept a damn thing; I don't mind if they never get the point as long as they are stopped from affecting other people's lives and other people's rights to honest expression, with their methods, and that must be the work of the law.

[rebby.livejournal.com]

I completely agree.

[falco-biarmicus.livejournal.com]

Ummmm

*HUG*?

I shall attempt to deflate your anger with my peace and harmony :-)

Oh - and much love

The cure for all ills.

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

Peace and harmony works. Hug works. Love works Big Time!

You know, I swear you make me feel better just by thinking about me.

*Soul smiles at you*

Thanks:-)

Re: The cure for all ills.

[falco-biarmicus.livejournal.com]

*gets out pom poms and does the 'we love boot' dance*

Just in case more anti-anger therapy is needed :-)

And Navajo would like to point out that he is all in favour of animal testing - well, the kinda testing that involves you feeding him organic, sea salt and olive oil encrusted, slow roasted lamb. Should you need to test any more meat, chocolate or cheese products, he is more than happy to come around and be your guinea pig (although he would rather eat a guinea pig than pretend to be one).

Re: The cure for all ills.

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

This is the kind of animal testing I can thoroughly agree with! So let's arrange some time (as soon as is good for y'all) to meet up and go for it!

And breathe and relax

[colonel-maxim.livejournal.com]

Humm, Blake is alright with the words but still cannot paint for toffee.

Sorry if I upset you but, unfortunately, it is the sick and sad monsters who are running the arguement whilst the sensible arguements are being left unheard behind the hum of threat and counter-action.

Re: And breathe and relax

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

You did not upset me at all, even when you are rude about Blake. God will get you for that you know.

The blurring of the issues upsets me. The bullying we are all agreed on, I think, but it has been allowed to cloud the issue of animal testing, and this is a huge shame. I have visions of people signing that petition as a gesture against these shitheads, rather than because they have any understanding of what happens to the animals involved.

My rant...

[the-lore.livejournal.com]

Stroke is the third leading cause of death in most developed countries. Much of the research effort has concentrated on animal models. And yet, for the majority of animal models of human stroke, no formal validation studies have been conducted. In fact, the Home Office admitted last year to never having conducted any study into the efficacy of animal experiments - and has no plans to do so. Similarly, few animal studies have been subjected to systematic review. Where systematic reviews of animal studies of stroke have been carried out, they have raised serious doubts about the interpretation and validity of the animal data with respect to the subsequent clinical research. While more than 700 different drugs have shown promise of efficacy in laboratory animals, only one has proven to have efficacy in human studies – but even this treatment remains highly controversial. Animal models have not provided the hoped-for and much- needed answers, while clinical studies have yet to provide clear treatment guidelines for stroke patients. It is therefore not surprising that adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death, killing 18,000 people in the UK every year, despite massive animal testing. Clearly, it is time to replace bad science (animal experiments) with good science (21st century human based research methods).

But you can do a little to help ...

Animal Aid set up the Humane Research Donor Card in 1991 (free pack available)

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/campaign/humane/wasted.htm

[QUOTE]But we would still need live bodies for some tests.[QUOTE]

Re animal testing the following explains why the 'intact systems' argument fails

"Causal/functional asymmetry - Let’s assume system S1 has causal mechanisms {a,b,c,d,e}

and system S2 has causal mechanisms (a,b,c,x,y}.

If we stimulate the sub-system {a,b,c} of S1 with stimuli sf and get result rf, then we would expect to get rf from {a,b,c} of S2 as well - if the model is viable.

However, this outcome will be highly probable if and only if {a,b,c} are causally independent of {d,e} and {x,y}.

In biological systems, as those who argue in favor of intact systems emphasize, almost all systems interact. We have no a priori reason to think otherwise."
(Specious Science, R Greek MD, 2002)

Thank you!

[smokingboot.livejournal.com]

This is amazing! Do you mind if I quote it on my main lj page?